How times have changed …
In this Dodger Thoughts piece from July 2003, you can see Ken Rosenthal (then with the Sporting News) report that “the Dodgers continue to target Melvin Mora, and the Orioles might be willing to take third baseman Adrian Beltre if they also received quality prospects in the deal.”
Mora was an All-Star from 2003-2005. Still, it’s amazing to contemplate the idea of needing to give up Beltre and top prospects for him.
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Anonymous
Who said the best trade I ever made was the one I never made??
Anonymous
Branch Rickey
Anonymous
Branch Rickey also would have traded Paul Lo Duca in a heartbeat.
Anonymous
I would have traded Paul de Podesta in less than a heartbeat.
Anonymous
The Paul DePodesta Wars will be fought forever it seems. Bill Plaschke has very powerful friends it seems.
foul tip
Bob, your almost-namesake Bob Timmerman has another letter to the editor in today’s Tennessean.
He’s like you…he likes to deal in facts. He may be short one “n,” but not on much else, IMO.
Anonymous
Apparently, one of Plaschke’s most powerful friends was DePo himself.
Anonymous
I guess a career can get derailed for reasons other than skill. It is interesting that Depo’s career never go back on the rails. Clemente made the Dodgers regret trading him. Depo has not proven the Dodgers wrong, yet.
Jason Ungar
well the 2003 Payroll was 105 million. The next two under Depodesta it was 89 and 81. Never under 94 for Ned and as high as 118 million. It seems Depodesta was tasked to cut salary and isn’t given the same benefit of the doubt in terms of “being handcuffed by McCourt” as Ned has been given.
Anonymous
He who also drafted Clemente away from us for the buckos. Branch Rickey giveth, Branch Rickey taketh away.
Anonymous
Was that in reference to Pete Reiser, the guy he was supposes to trade back to the Cardinals?
Anonymous
Then again, we didn’t even have Adrian after 2004. :-(
Anonymous
Scott Boras taketh away.
Anonymous
I seem to recall a quote from Frank McCourt to a fan asking about FA Beltre. “Don’t worry, you will have your third baseman.”
With Boras’ assistance, McCourt taketh away. (That is as nice as I will ever get regarding Scott Boras).
Anonymous
That quote might have been mine, several sites ago. True story – toward the end of the season my wife and I were in the seats behind home plate and McCourt was next to us the whole game. After the last out, I asked McCourt if he was going to re-sign Adrian Beltre. His response, “Don’t worry – you’ll have your 3rd baseman.”
I was snowed. He was very nice and chatty throughout the game and I really thought he meant what he said.
It’s my understanding that neither he nor DePodesta picked up the phone to call Boras during the offseason.
Alas, the grapes are still sour.
Terry Pruett
I will never understand the whole Beltre situation. The Dodgers just didn’t seem that interested in keeping him, as I recall. I wondered why then…and I wonder why now.
Anonymous
Being a Boras client, he went for the last dollar. They made him a fair offer, which he soon after regrtted not taking.
Terry Pruett
Hmmm…my memory is that they made no offer at all, and that DePodesta was non-communicative with Boras. However, shaky memory is part of the deal when you get old…
Jason Ungar
That was just Boras spin IMO. The Dodgers new what it was gonna cost and they weren’t gonna pay it. So Depodesta went in other directions.
Anonymous
Could it be that DePo didn’t like Beltre’s sabermetrics?
Anonymous
This is ridiculous. Being a rational, normal human being he chose to work for an employer that would pay him the market rate, instead of taking a paycut of MILLIONS of dollars to work for an employer who clearly did not appreciate him. I can’t believe you guys are making Beltre out to be the villain.
I think the real issue was Beltre’s contract year happened to follow a couple of down years, and DePo, thinking he’s being smart, thought Beltre would not deserve the contract he would get in the FA market. What DePo could not figure out was that $64 for 5 mil. was an absurdly good contract even for Beltre of the struggling years, let alone for the one that hit 50 HRs.
foul tip
A dodgers.com item by Gurnick says Dempster and Aramis are top Dodger targets.
And that if Dempster is acquired, Bills may go to pen.
I’ve wondered if that might not be best for him. Come in, let it rip, let your stuff go, don’t hold back, don’t overthink it, don’t worry about pacing yourself. And don’t worry about that 6th inning or whatever other inning/s that may be problematic, since lately there seem to be one or more that are.
Going to the pen a while and getting a fresh start wouldn’t mean he could never start again.
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120711&content_id=34845758&vkey=news_la&c_id=la
Also, from mlb.com, on who has prospect currency to deal–
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120711&content_id=34842122&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
Anonymous
I don’t disagree with this strategy, but what if Chad’s one bad inning is the one inning he works as a reliever? He can turn a 2-2 game into a 6-2 game in a hurry.
Of course, a quick hook could stop such a tragedy in its tracks.
foul tip
Yeah, if needed. And no chances to blow up the pen because of possible early exits.
Anonymous
But he’s always good for his first 3-4 innings!
Anonymous
Billingsley actually in his career has pitched better in innings 3-4 than innings 1-2.
Inning 6 is the worst with a career ERA of 5.44 in that inning, although that is probably not that unusual for pitchers to have a high ERA when they are just about done.
Billingsley’s ERA for inning 7-8 aren’t as bad. Inning 9 is high, but that’s a small sample and some of those runs when the manager would leave him out to see if he could get a CG and then got tired out. He has just 7 IP in the 9th in his career and some were in relief.
Anonymous
Those numbers make sense, since he’s not allowed to pitch 7 and 8th inning unless he’s blowing them away. If he’s bad chad, he’s long gone by the 7th. It’s the same reason why pitchers seem to get better the third time around the lineup.
Anonymous
Why would Brewers give up on Ramirez so soon after signing him to a 3-year deal? He is producing for them at a fairly affordable cost.
foul tip
Dunno. Maybe the thinking is they might let him go as part of deadline selling, if out of it. Does seem like it’d take more than just that, tho.
Do they have a good 3B prospect anywhere close to ready?
Anonymous
This does seem to make some sense!
Anonymous
Encarnacion off the block
Anonymous
Doesn’t break my heart.
Anonymous
Lousy defender but has pop. Kinda the anti-Loney
Terry Pruett
Why not? He was the best bat thought to be on the market that we could maybe…maybe…acquire. A bat has to come from somewhere…because we don’t have any in our system. And yet, whenever reasonable bats are proposed (Encarnacion, Ramirez, Headley) folks seem to find a million reasons why they don’t want them.
Anonymous
No difference, Ned’s making the deal, not us… Are there any non-home grown players on the roster that we approved before Ned signed them?
Anonymous
Never said I wouldn’t take Headley. In fact, I would welcome him. The Ramirez that intrigues me more is Hanley who appears disgruntled in Miami. Headley might be the Dodgers best fit, though as arguments have had it, would likely either not be traded within the division or cost the Dodgers a premium if he was.
As for Encarnacion, I find it telling that he has appeared in only one game at third base this season. I second PismoBruce’s comments above regarding the anti-Loney. His bat is a valuable commodity, but at what price both in terms of players and defensive shortfalls?
Anonymous
As far as players following the advice of their agents – I wish more players could come to the realization that most agents could care less WHERE their client plays as long as they play for the highest bidder. Most agents are only interested in maximizing their bottom line, and it is up to the player to step back and consider whether making a couple extra million is worth the switch to a new team. In Beltre’s case, I used to think Boras probably just forced his hand to go with the highest bidder but IDK. At the time Beltre was still pretty young and seemed naive – struck me as not the type to be able to realize that 60 mil and being happy was more important than 64 mil and being unhappy.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m sure his unhappiness did not last long – a few months, maybe a little longer? – but still, I get the feeling that some players – especially young, international ones like the Dominican Beltre – let thier agents decide thier fate, all in the pursuit of the allmighty dollar.
Anonymous
I don’t doubt that you mean no offense to Beltre, but I find that there is much that is wrong and potentially offensive in your comment. What does Beltre’s country of origin have anything to do with him choosing a much, much better contract over being low-balled by the Dodgers? Many American-born, white athletes sign with Boras and work for the highest bidder. Does that mean that guys like Strasburg or J.D. Drew are incapable of making their own decisions and need a savvy agent to decide their fates? I think it’s more likely that Dominican players simply like to maximize their earnings, just like white, middleclass Americans, and that is why they hire agents who help them maximize their bottomline.
I also don’t understand why fans almost always put the onus of the decision on the player in these situations. Why talk about Beltre choosing $64 mil. and unhappiness or $60 mil. and happiness, why not focus on how the Dodgers let a great 3B walk over mere $4 mil.? Btw., it was not $64 mil. vs $60 mil. It was $64 mil. over 5 years and $70 mil. over 6 with an option year. The offer from Seattle was FAR better than DePo’s lowballing. No, Beltre didn’t leave the Dodgers because he was naive and foolish and guided by a money-hungry agent. He was lowballed by an incompetent GM who had no intentions of keeping him, and chose to maximize his earnings instead of being underpaid.
Terry Pruett
Agreed
Anonymous
Naw, the point I was making was that Beltre, being from the Dominican, was very comfortable and happy being with the Dodgers – I think it was Manny Mota who he considered a “2nd father” – because he had come up through the Academy in the Dom Rep and he considered many in the organization “family”. Afterwards, I read how Beltre was miserable in Seattle. Well, if he didn’t want to leave the Dodgers, he should have made his feelings clear to his agent – Boras.
Just last year, Jered Weaver signed for 5 yrs / 85 mil and left millions (some say up to 50 mil) on the table because he was comfortable and happy to stay with his current team for less than what he could have gotten if he instead chose to go to the highest bidder – which I’ve heard is exactly what his agent, Boras, encouraged him to do.
The difference is Weaver stood his ground, Beltre did not.
Anonymous
You are assuming that Beltre was forced to go to Seattle against his wishes. Maybe he weighed his options and decided that being paid the market rate was superior to the comfort zone in LA. Maybe he didn’t think he would have been miserable in Seattle. Why should he think so?
Weaver’s situation is completely different, as he still had a year of arbitration left. In signing the extension for $85 mil., he was taking a discount in exchange for security–“hometown” discount probably played a small part, but just that. As a point of comparison, Verlander signed an extension for 5/$80m. (with 2 years of arb. left) and Felix signed his extension for 5/$75m. (with 2 yrs of arb.). Since Weaver is a comparable pitcher to Verlander (well, at the time) and inferior to Felix, I don’t see how there is much discount, if any, to talk about.
Anonymous
Man, do I miss the days when Dodger Thoughts was on Baseball Toaster. We’d get on that site back in 2003 and go crazy with the baseball talk. This site is good, but something about that interface stimulated your comment community to fly like turkeys.
Meanwhile, I wish I could figure out how to sign out of this as VailBeach, a nomdeplume I don’t really use anymore, and go back to being DzzrtRatt, or using my real name. — the former DzzrtRatt.
foul tip
I think you can hover over “Disqus” at top right, go to edit profile, #2 on dropdown menu, and make changes.
Then hit save. See if that won’t work, Ratt. I think that’s how I evolved from 1foultip2 to the current striped down version.
Anonymous
Thanks, foul tip. Let’s see if this works.
Anonymous
Yep.
Anonymous
I am baffled by this comment: ”
Apparently, one of Plaschke’s most powerful friends was DePo himself.”
Even as recently as last year, Plaschke has ridiculed DePodesta in print. Plaschke hated DePodesta from the moment he started. It was a Dick Young-like attack from the start.
It was one of the most shameful things he’s ever done. Except for his pillorying of Sasha Cohen and Lindsey Jacobellis.
Anonymous
Clearly, DePo collaborated with Plaschke to get himself dumped. Never heard of of Sasha Cohen (though I’d like to see Sasha Baron Cohen play DePo) or Lindsey Jacobellis.
Terry Pruett
Sasha Cohen was a figure skater that Plaschke essentially fricasee’d. Lindsey Jacobellis is an X Games and Winter Olympics star in snowboarding who made the youthful mistake of hot-dogging at the end of a race she had in the bag…Plaschke (AKA: the Defender Of ALL That is Right in Sports, and Occupier of the Moral High Ground) ripped her skin off. Both were cheap shots unworthy of being published in the Times.
Anonymous
Not reading Plaschke myself (though I know who he is, vaguely), I still doubt he was able to engineer those problems all on his own. DePo dug his own hole.
Anonymous
You’ve never once detailed what you considered to be a mistake by DePodesta. You just say he was bad. Every GM has ups and downs. But you just say “Oh, he was horrible.” But you don’t present any detail to your arguments.
There is a reasonable debate to be made here. But you just don’t engage in it. Except to say one thing.
Over
and
Over
and
Over
and
Over
Anonymous
2005
Anonymous
Now you don’t even make sense.
Anonymous
Personaly I would rather have the dodgers go after LaHair and Headley that way we won’t lose to many prospects and then go asfter the big prize COLE HAMELS!!!
Anonymous
LaHair scares me. He’s 29 and seeing his first real playing time. Plus, after getting off to a hot start, has cooled down significantly. Elian Herrerra with some power?
Anonymous
Please, please not Aramis R. – not another old, expensive vet. Headley is the way to go. Younger, cheaper and better upside.
Anonymous
I’d be fine with either one, so long as I don’t have to pay for them. LaHair is simply too risky.
Anonymous
Dempster did have a phenomenal first half, but given his career is probably destined to reverting to the mean. Unless you can get a possible long term top starter like Hamels, I would stay pat with the starting rotation, including bills. If Bills doesn’t also revert to his mean, then when Lilly or Rubby get back you can move him and keep EO in the rotation. Pitching is not the problem. We need offense. If Encanacion is available and can’t play third, maybe he can play first? Ramirez might be a good sign. If we could find a good, relatively young left fielder, first baseman, or third baseman, I would say give up one of our top armson the farm, but otherwise keep those arms and maybe give Milwaukee some salary relief for Ramirez and some mediocre prospects.
Anonymous
I too am a Dempster skeptic.
Anonymous
As am I, especially when it does not address the team’s biggest weakness. Look at Dempster’s Whip, this year vs career.
Anonymous
Dempster very obviously reinvented himself since becoming a starter again in 2007. Looking at his career numbers is meaningless. Also meaningless is WHIP.
foul tip
Encarnacion signed an extension today. What’s plan B, or C, or D, or ZZ?
Anonymous
Plan ZZ involves finding some bearded guys from Texas.
Anonymous
How about the entire AAA team for Cargo or Tulo?
Anonymous
Pitching is not “the” problem, but it is definitely an issue. Bills hasn’t pitched like a #2 starter, and we can’t expect Capuano to keep it up for a whole season. We have no idea what post-TJS Rubby will be like, and no, Lilly is not a #2 either. Eovaldi is just not going to solve this issue. He strikes out people at a lower rate than Zito while walking a fair bit. That’s not the makings of a mid-rotation starter, and barely acceptable for a back-end starter….if Eovaldi can improve his command.
What about relief? We have one LHP in Elbert and he’s already pitched almost 40 innings. Jansen and Lindblom have been working hard as well.
Also, no one’s giving up a good, young position player for one of our arms, except maybe for Zach Lee, and that’s a big IF.
Anonymous
But there is no front of the rotation guy except maybe Hamels available. Do you give up a top prospect so maybe Dempster fits in the #2 slot, but more likely is the same as bills or Harang?
Anonymous
I don’t think he would cost a top prospect.
Anonymous
If you don’t think Dempster would cost at least one top prospect (if not more), you’re dreaming…
Anonymous
Or just being realistic. Just look at the deals made last year for mid-level veteran pitching rentals. Erik Bedard, who was having a good year, brought back Trayvon Robinson. Edwin Jackson brought back Jason Frasor and Zach Stewart.
But yeah, I’d love to know exactly what you base your estimates on.
Anonymous
So Erik Bedard was having an okay year and was traded for a top prospect, and Edwin Jackson was having an okay year and was traded for a major leaguer and a top prospect. Whereas Dempster is leading the league in ERA (which those guys weren’t anywhere close to doing), and you don’t think it will take at least a top prospect (if not more) to land him? Maybe I’m missing something, because what you say doesn’t make any sense.
Anonymous
Yes you are missing a very important point. You don’t automatically get to be a top prospect for being under 25 and in an MLB organization. You have to be good, or, at the very least, not be awful.
Anonymous
Well, I’ll go back to my original statement. If you don’t think Dempster would only be traded if the Cubs get at least one top prospect in return (if not more, and/or major leaguers), you’re dreaming. They’re not going to just give him away. You’re welcome to think otherwise, but it just ain’t gonna happen.
Anonymous
Again, if you think Trayvon Robinson is a top prospect, then what is the issue in giving away such a “top prospect” for two months of Dempster? We could give the Cubs one Trayvon per each start Dempster makes for us and still come out on top.
Anonymous
Did I hear right that Trout was the 25 player taken in his draft year? Does anybody know if the Dodgers had an earlier pick and if so, who did they take?
Anonymous
We only had a supplemental pick # 36 and picked Aaron Miller, who looked good until he missed 2011 with an injury.
Anonymous
There are lots of cases of great players who were passed up by many teams before being taken. (Such as Albert Pujols, who was drafted in the 13th round.) I think it’s testimony to the difficulty of judging potential at the amateur level, as well as the variability of whether or not that talent turns into real production.
Anonymous
To give you an even more striking example of great players who were passed up, take a look at the first round of the MLB draft from 2002:
1. Bryan Bullington
2. B.J. Upton
3. Chris Gruler
4. Adam Loewen
5. Clint Everts
6. Zack Greinke
7. Prince Fielder
8. Scott Moore
9. Jeff Francis
10. Drew Meyer
11. Jeremy Hermida
12. Joe Saunders
13. Khalil Greene
14. Russ Adams
15. Scott Kazmir
16. Nick Swisher
17. Cole Hamels
18. Royce Ring
19. James Loney
20. Denard Span
21. Bobby Brownlie
22. Jeremy Guthrie
23. Jeff Francoeur
24. Joe Blanton
25. Matt Cain
26. John McCurdy
27. Sergio Santos
28. John Mayberry
29. Derick Grigsby
30. Ben Fritz
31. Greg Miller
32. Luke Hagerty
33. Matthew Whitney
34. Dan Meyer
35. Jeremy Brown
36. Chadd Blasko
37. Steve Obenchain
38. Matt Clanton
39. Mark Teahen
40. Mark Schramek
41. Micah Schilling
Anonymous
More seriously though, I would look at Hart or Ramirez, maybe Cuddyer.
Anonymous
I think Hart would solve enough offensive problems to stomach Uribe at 3B. Is Milwaukee shopping him?
Anonymous
We’re scouting him, which means there must be some thought he’s a possibility.
Anonymous
Garza and Dempster!
Don’t get it. Seems like the only thing our farm system might produce over the next one to two years is 2 or 3, or even a bunch of Garza’s. And Dempster, well he is great, but he’s 35 or something so what gives.
I quess I am often blind to what we need RIGHT NOW!! to win, but if I try—I still see and want offense.
Go figure.
Anonymous
Dempster’s a career mediocrity who’s having an outstanding season, so far.
Anonymous
This All-Star break feels like it’s been going on for far too long. Sure am looking forward to the Pads coming into the Ravine tomorrow night.
Anonymous
Once we get them into the Ravine, we can ambush them and beat them senseless with our big clubs!
KT
Can’t wait….I have good tickets to the Saturday night game. Section 35ABL row 2 seats 1 & 2
Anonymous
Don’t forget to bring yer big clubs.
Anonymous
We are counting on Ned to bring ’em.
Anonymous
I am on top of our friend John down under and will be in Jakarta for the month, so may not even get to watch live on mlb.tv. Pretty excited to get going again!
Anonymous
I am still waiting for WBBas to detail what in particular was the fault of the Dodgers GM in 2005 except for injuries to key players and Jim Tracy’s baffling use of his personnel.
He could just say he didn’t like DePodesta and that would make more sense than his continual use of veiled comments and slurs.
Anonymous
Maybe he didn’t like the guy’s egocentric, bombastic claim to being the “new sheriff in town” ?
Oh wait, that was Kevin Malone …. what a boob that clown was – called himself Dodger Boy – unbelievable.
Anonymous
What’s not to like? WBB just needs to go see 21 Jump Street.
Anonymous
What’s 21 Jump Street? In any event, DePo assembled a roster-full of Uribes in 2005.
Anonymous
Every regular on the Dodgers in 2005 had more production than Uribe this year and it’s not even close.
The lowest OPS of any regular was Cesar Izturis’ .624.
The 2005 Dodgers were without their starting center fielder (Bradley) and right fielder (Drew) for most of the season.
And the Cy Young Award winning reliever from 2004 went down with an injury also.
And DePodesta had to work against a hostile media and a clueless ownership.
Anonymous
How about keeping Milton Bradley we around after he went ballistic against a fan.
Anonymous
Wasn’t it Depo who signed Drew to a long term contract which allowed him to walk after three years?
Anonymous
And so what of it?
Anonymous
And for most of us, it was “Good Riddance.”
Anonymous
>> Mora was an All-Star from 2003-2005.
Mora was an All-Star in 2003 and 2005. He was not an All-Star in 2004, even though it was the very best year of his career by most measures.
Anonymous
Bad news: The Phillies may make a serious effort at re-signing Cole Hamels – http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/phillies-preparing-major-offer-for-cole-hamels.html
Nick
Still has absolutely no reason to sign and every reason to wait and see what he’ll get offered in FA, at which point he can still sign with the NL version of the Yankees if he wants.
I personally hope he does re-sign at some ridiculously priced contract that further hamstrings them salary-wise. If the Phillies think the best is yet to come from mid-to-late 30’s players like Howard, Utley, Rollins, Halladay, Lee, Polanco, etc, they’re kidding themselves. We won’t hear anything from that toilet of a city for awhile while they wait for those contracts to run out.
Anonymous
At least Belisario got back to Miami and didn’t get stuck in Venezuela.
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120713&content_id=34868744&vkey=news_la&c_id=la
Anonymous
Sadly bt, I don’t think this is the end of this story. Nothing to base my statement on, other than a feeling.
Jon Weisman
NPUT