Shane Victorino, LF
Mark Ellis, 2B
Matt Kemp, CF
Andre Ethier, RF
Hanley Ramirez, SS
James Loney, 1B
Luis Cruz, 3B
A.J. Ellis, C
Chris Capuano, P
People getting impatient with Matt Kemp for a few hitless games is pretty silly. But Andre Ethier has been a source of frustration for some time now.
Tuesday’s game-ending double play was a tipping point for a few people to point the spotlight at him, including Steve Dilbeck of Dodgers Now, Eric Stephen of True Blue L.A. and — in the most detail — Mike Petriello of Mike Scioscia’s Tragic Illness.
Petriello notes that a second-half slump is nothing new for Ethier, although in the past it was easier to blame things on injuries. This year, he’s not so sure:
… While the poor K/BB trend isn’t good, I don’t think he’s suddenly lost all patience and ability to make contact. It seems to me that it’s more of a symptom than a cause, and that the real root of the trouble is simply this: other managers aren’t blind.
Here’s what I mean by that. Check out the percentage of lefty pitching that Ethier has faced over the last six years, shown in the table at right. For years, Ethier routinely faced lefties 25-30% of the time. This year it’s well over 40%, and as I hardly need to tell you, Ethier is absolutely awful against lefty pitching. Well, I don’t need to tell you, but I will – in over 1,000 career plate appearances against southpaws, Ethier hits only .238/.298/.351 (.650); this year, it’s even worse .216/.281/.315 (.596). Despite his briefly effective first few weeks against lefties this year, Ethier’s back to his typical awful performance against them, and other managers are taking advantage of that fact. If there’s any mystery here, it’s why it took them so long to do this since Ethier’s never really been able to hit them.
Yet either because Don Mattingly is unwilling to offend a star or he simply has no one on the active roster to turn to (and while I know Mattingly-bashing is a fun sport, I’m more inclined to believe the latter, because the bench is short and does anyone really like Rivera that much?) Ethier continues to hit against lefties. …
It’s a problem without much of a solution, certainly not as long as first base is in its current quandary. The only moves I can think of are to call up Jerry Sands and Elian Herrera as platoon partners for first base and left field, and get rid of a couple of Juans. Otherwise, we’re just hoping for the best.
In the short term, Stephen offers a source of optimism for tonight:
… A pair of left-handers have had success against Cain in their careers. Andre Ethier is 24-for-50 with two doubles and a triple, hitting .480/.500/.560 against Cain in his career, and is 2-for-3 with a double this season. Ethier has still sitting on 29 doubles on August 5, one double shy of becoming the first Dodger in the 129-year history of the franchise with six consecutive seasons of 30 doubles or more.
James Loney is hitting .364/.429/.533 (16-for-44 with five doubles and a triple) against Cain with 11 RBI in 17 games, including 2-for-3 this season. …
Anonymous
Playing a man short tonight, are we? Might as well.
Anonymous
Been playing short all year.
Anonymous
The bench is truely short or bad or both!
Adam Luther
At the game last night (once I made it into the park, but that’s another story), I couldn’t help but look up at Ethier’s numbers on the 76/coke/traderjoes/whatever scoreboard and say to myself…well .277 and the power numbers…that’s pretty much what to expect in Andre, no less, no better. He’s just a first half player and he seems to have prolonged slumps/streaks. Consistent is consistent.
Anonymous
His career OPS splits are 1st half: 848; 2nd half: .820. His worst month is actually June at .753.
Andrea Berman
Ethier needs to take BP anytime one of our lefties throws a bullpen
Anonymous
Reading Jon’s post, I had a similar thought about Andre: he should spend the off-season hitting against lefties every day.
Anonymous
He can hire a BP pitcher for all the swings he wants, but the problem is facing ML quality lefties in game situations.
Jon Weisman
Do people really think Andre doesn’t practice hitting against lefties?
Anonymous
If practice makes perfect . . . or even better . . . then the answer seems to obvious.
Jon Weisman
And yet, the answer is … yes, he does practice hitting against lefties.
Anonymous
Yeah, but does he try it from the right side?
Anonymous
But does he practice hitting – rather, recognizing – sweeping sliders down and away?
Jon Weisman
I’m sorry, I don’t want this to come across wrong, but do you think these questions don’t occur to Ethier and the Dodgers? Sincerely, what do you think he does? Swings at 10 fastballs and pronounces himself fixed?
I know it’s frustrating that he’s not better, but I really can’t fathom this line of thinking: “He has a weakness, so he must not be trying to improve it.”
Are people that unfamiliar with the concept of a hurdle that is hard to overcome, even with effort?
Andrea Berman
No, I think he practices against a lefty BP pitcher. I’m talking about taking BP from a Cy Young winning lefty.
Anonymous
No one practices against CY winning lefties.
Anonymous
Do fish do the same?
Anonymous
I had no TV last night, but I am wondering whether the Gnats were bothering to hold Kemp on when Andre was up. Sanchez’s presence behind the plate is prima facie evidence of “defensive indifference,” which should have helped avoid the DP and kept the inning going.
Anonymous
Belt was standing about a step behind Kemp, but not standing on the bag. The Giants weren’t completely conceding second.
Also, Lopez was pitching out of the stretch.
If Kemp had tried to take second, he would have been credited with a steal I think.
Anonymous
Thanks, timmer and nsxtasy, for the clarification. Personally, I detest the idea of “defensive indifference” but, when the other side is conceding it, you should take it.
Anonymous
I think “defensive indifference” is a bad practice for exactly that reason – it allows the runner to take a base, thereby avoiding the double-play. I think “defensive indifference” is inexcusable. But so is failure to take advantage of the other team’s willingness to allow it.
Anonymous
This week in baseball scheduling:
Arizona and Miami are playing a regularly scheduled doubleheader today.The A’s series in Tampa this weekend ends on Saturday.
The Dbacks-Marlins doubleheader was necessitated by the Marlins ending up having too many games in a row to play.
The Rays need to leave Tampa before the Republican Convention starts. And maybe a hurricane.
Anonymous
Maybe they can go to St Petersburg?
underdog
Meanwhile, a piece about HanRam:
Dodgers’ Ramirez, energetic and healthy, swinging hot stick
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/scott-miller/19870796/dodgers-ramirez-energetic-and-healthy-swinging-hot-stick-
Be kinda nice to have a few games where Kemp, Ethier and HanRam all rake at the same time. The few we did have (say one or two in Pittsburgh?) sure were fun. And runs and stuff.
Anonymous
Prior to the posting, I had done some compilation of my own today on Ethier vs.
left-handed pitchers. Some of its is covered above, some isn’t:
2006 – 82 PAs (plate appearances)– .351/.378/.468/.846 –
13Ks, 3 BBs
2007 — 119 PAs– .279/.319/.396/.716 – 22Ks, 7 BBs
2008 – 155 PAs — .243/.325/.368/.692 – 24Ks, 15 BBs
2009 – 187 PAs — .194/.283/.345/.629 – 39 Ks, 13 BBs
2010 – 178 PAs — .233/.292/.333/.625 – 36Ks, 13 BBs
2011 – 151 PAs — .220/.258/.305/.563 – 41Ks, 7 BBs
2012 – 180 PAs — .213/.278/.311/.589 – 49 Ks, 10 BBs
Career – 1052 PAs — .237/.298/.350/.648 – 224 Ks, 68 BBs
The following are all vs. left-handed pitchers:
Grounding in double plays
2006-2011 – 2.87 percent of PAs
2012 – 3.89 percent of PAs
Strikeouts
2006-2011 – 20.1 percent of PAs
2012 – 27.2 percent of PAs
Bases on Balls
2006-2011 – 6.65 percent of PAs
2012 – 5.56 percent of PAs
underdog
Jon, you probably already discussed this but with Adrian Gonzalez clearing waivers… well, what would it take do you think? (Beside all of the AL passing, which is possible, etc.) It’s likely very unrealistic but can you imagine a lineup with Kemp, HanRam, Ethier and AGon? (Plus Ellis and Ellis, and Shane.)
Jon Weisman
I don’t really speculate in “what it would take” conversations – they’re not at all a strength of mine. I would assume that there’s interest from the Dodgers, and I’d assume the Red Sox would want Zach Lee-caliber talent, but I don’t know what the package would be, or what $ would be involved.
Anonymous
Gonzalez’s seven-year contract extension calls for him to make $4.82MM for the remainder of 2012 ($21MM total), $21MM annually through 2016, and $21.5MM in ’17 and ’18. The veteran also holds a partial no-trade clause.
Boston should be happy to give him away on a waiver claim but they aren’t
Anonymous
I love this post…. (great by Weisman….great bonus content as well)
….
Five-year, $85 million contract extension?
Also, “The deal also includes a $17.5 million club option for 2018 that would
automatically vest if Ethier were to reach certain plate appearance
thresholds in 2017 or in 2016-17 combined, potentially taking the total
value of the contract to $100 million over six years.” – Tony Jackson
….
You need to be able to hit lefties…. “PSSST….Seriosly Andre, It’s time.” :-)
veryolddodgerfan
I dunno. is the idea that ethier doesn’t hit lefties some sort of revelation. and that there’s no one to logically replace him with. if your answer is Sands that’s a no sale. if you think sands has a better chance than ethier with a major league pitcher you just haven’t been watching.
Jon Weisman
I have been watching. And I also know that while Sands has a .301/.289 OBP/slugging against righties, he also has a .372/.532 mark against lefties in the majors. If you have been watching, that’s exactly what you’d have seen. You’d have seen Jerry Sands get 17 singles, eight doubles, three homers and seven walks in 86 plate appearances against lefties. No more, no less. Regardless of his batting style, approach or the position of the moon, that’s what you’d have seen. So if you think he can’t be successful against lefties, then you’re the one that hasn’t been watching, because he already has been.
Now, whether he can continue that success against lefties, I don’t know. Pitchers adjust, sometimes batters don’t re-adjust. But the question isn’t whether Sands is capable of ever doing it. He already has. The question is whether he can sustain it.
Ethier is at .298/.350 against lefties. We have seen plenty of him against lefties and know pretty clearly what we’re dealing with. Not wanting to see if Sands can continue the success **that he has already had** against lefties is a sign of stubbornness.
To be clear, I don’t write this in anger, so don’t start down that road :)
veryolddodgerfan
well if you want to cherry pick stats make sure to do that with dee next time he’s discussed. he hit well last september too. what has mr sands did THIS year when he was up.
Jon Weisman
I’m doing the opposite of cherry picking. I’m using the entirety of Sands’ career against lefties, which is what we’re talking about. You, on the other hand, seem to want to only count the stats that support your argument.
veryolddodgerfan
stats are great aren’t they? seeing as how the dodgers clearly don’t want him in the majors and that he struck out 40 percent of the time he was up this year could have something to do with it. but i’m sure stats and fans know more about sands that the coaches and such that he plays for. i’m sure they’re ignoring the stats out of spite.
go ahead and play him at first. there can’t be a drop off there. that is unless you use how he’s actually done this year..
Jon Weisman
Stats are great! In fact, stats are so great, they can be used in the same paragraph to support an argument being made by someone who is trashing them!
I’m not suggesting that Sands is a future All-Star. I’m suggesting that he can possibly do better than Ethier is doing against lefties. SInce you seem to agree Ethier is terrible against lefties, I’m not sure why this troubles you so.
Eric Enders
I don’t even know where to begin with this post. You make an assertion, someone refutes it convincingly and at length, and unable to muster any sort of coherent counter-argument, you resort to a sarcastic personal attack (“fans know more…”)
Sometimes, you know, the other guy is just right.
Anonymous
I assume by your name, very old, that you have seen lots of Dodgers over the years. Who do Sands and Ethier remind you of?
veryolddodgerfan
I’m not so distressed Jon. i just find the idea that you rather have sands (over ethier) bat against a lefthander as something not being reasonable. The guy got handed the leftfield job in spring training and his performance was so bad they sent him out. he came up sucked again. i feel for the kid. but if you’re saying you rather have the dodgers bat sands against a left hander rather than an all star major league outfielder i think that’s really odd.
KT
Here’s an off topic post that might bring some fond memories to those of you who grew up in the East San Gabriel Valley. Here is the link: http://whenwewerehome.com/
Anonymous
Totally off topic, but I think the Dodgers should consider adding Randy Wolf for bullpen depth when the rosters expand – presuming there’s room on the 40-man.
Anonymous
Off topic isn’t the only thing off about that idea.
veryolddodgerfan
bumsrap i can’t answer your question below because sands hasn’t played a major league season yet so he doesn’t remind me of anyone.
veryolddodgerfan
hold it he does remind me a little of Van Slyke at least at the plate.
Anonymous
I hope you mean Andy Van Slyke.
Anonymous
If not pitching, then for pinch hitting purposes. He’s pretty good…
Anonymous
Victorino vs RHP 2012 653, career vs Cain 470 these are OPS
Mark Ellis 568, 516
Kemp 873, 701
Ethier 909, 1060
Hanley 808, 772
Loney 667,951
Cruz 719, 533
AJEllis825, 667
It would help the team if the 2 Ellis’ switched line-up spots vs RHP
Top OPS at Alb. for 2012 at least as many AB as Herrera (227)
vs R; Castellanos 1123, SVS 1089, Sands 929
vs L: Cruz 1125, Fedex 1110, Herrera 1068, Fields 995, Castellanos 984, Sands 887
Sands 6th in the group against LHP
Jon Weisman
“the minute you sign ethier for 80 million or whtever the idea that he’s sitting because of logic or some stat doesn’t apply for at least a year or two. you can get all outraged or whatever but it’s a dry hole for now.”
Someone never heard of Andruw Jones.
Look, I’m not eager to sit Ethier against anybody, and I know the Dodgers aren’t. I’m not even convinced Sands will be better than Ethier than lefties in the long run. I’m certainly not outraged about the situation. But when a guy has struggled as consistently as Ethier against lefties – and heaven knows you can see it without looking at the stats – why wouldn’t you try something else?
Sands has had three hitless starts in 2012. Three. That means he should never get another chance?
Anonymous
You are playing Br’er Rabbit to the commenter you quoted
veryolddodgerfan
From below. I’m not so distressed Jon. i just find the idea that you rather have sands (over ethier) bat against a lefthander as something not being reasonable. The guy got handed the leftfield job in spring training and his performance was so bad they sent him out. he came up and performed very poorly again. i feel for the kid. but if you’re saying you rather have the dodgers bat sands against a left hander rather than an all star major league outfielder i think that’s really odd.
veryolddodgerfan
wow now we’re comparing ethier with Andruw Jones. i think we should cease with the idea that my argument are out of whack if that’s the direction you’re taking.
Anonymous
I would rather have Andruw Jones against lefties than Ethier. I think most anyone would.
Anonymous
Beltre 3 HR so far tonight, 2 in one inning (not GS’s)
Jon Weisman
Wow!
Jon Weisman
From Dylan Hernandez: “Andre Ethier has a popped blister on the palm of his right hand that has exposed an area of raw skin the size of a quarter.”
Anonymous
I am sick of mediocrities like Pagan having this kind of success v. the Dodgers.
Jeffrey Thomas III
It never ends.
Anonymous
Arias is less than mediocre – he’s bad. This is inexcusable.
Anonymous
Goodness.
Anonymous
Turned the game on to see them already losing 3-0, not even surprised.
Anonymous
I had hoped they would finally escape the 1st inning without giving up a run . . . instead, it was the worst inning of this series . . . yikes!
Anonymous
One word describes this series perfectly up to this point :
Disgusting.
Anonymous
Someone should say something about Ethier’s defense if we are to debate his play over Sands’..
Jon Weisman
That is relevant.
jasonu
Over the last few months WBB almost had me convinced that we were better than the Giants.
Anonymous
I dunno if “we” are, but the Dodgers are.
jasonu
maybe they can prove it then. because how they are playing is pathetic.
Anonymous
They will. There are always bumps in the road.
jasonu
You know of course I hope you are right. But seriously they are totally outplaying us in every facet of the game right now.
Anonymous
They are — SOME days. To paraphrase the Dudley Moore Arthur (the REAL “Arthur”), you just can’t count on it being one of those days.
Anonymous
Good play by the Giants SS there.
Anonymous
I don’t know why—but if trends continue, the Gnats will cream the
Dodgers again tonight. Then the Dodgers will sweep the Gnats in the next series commencing about Sept. 7. So neither team gains anything, and the pennant race will depend on the record against outside teams. Why this has to happen, I don’t know!.
Anonymous
Let’s go Dre!
Anonymous
I wonder if USPS/UPS/FedEx will have our offense delivered from Atlanta in time for our next series
Anonymous
Well, at least they had to make a nice play to get us.
Anonymous
That showed Fatsoval’s maximum range.
Anonymous
Yes, I meant Belt’s play on Panza’s throw.
Anonymous
Gnatfans don’t appreciate how appropriate “Panza” is. Belt can’t hit, but has a decent glove.
Anonymous
Belt is hitting just as well as Ethier and this is his first full season in which he is supposed to be struggling mightily.
Anonymous
He’s hitting about the same as Ethier is now, which is hardly good, and he’s been really awful most of the year. His upside is Loney.
Anonymous
Belt is hitting also about as well as Kemp did in his first full season.
Anonymous
Sandoval was statistically the best defensive third baseman in the NL last season (based on defensive runs saved and UZR/150).
Anonymous
A prime example of misleading defensive stats.
Anonymous
He really handles that bat.
Jeffrey Thomas III
Wasted.
Jon Weisman
New non-baseball post up top. Baseball chat can remain here.
Anonymous
You can’t walk Christian, who couldn’t get a hit in slow pitch.
Anonymous
Dodgers getting embarrassed now, 6-0.
Jeffrey Thomas III
Intentionally walking Belt with two outs… interesting decision. By interesting I mean stupid.
Anonymous
Especially since he’s such a poor hitter.
David Farinella
This series has exhausted me. Such a high from that road trip to lay this _______. You know?
Anonymous
Rubby!
Jeffrey Thomas III
Turning it off. Calling it a night.
Anonymous
Monday is correct that Gnat batters have been far too comfortable in this series. Pagan and Arias, in particular, need to eat dirt.
David Farinella
Might as well let Uribe pitch.
Anonymous
Thankfully, I decided not to watch tonight’s game. Instead, watched a great film, “Patton,” with my wife and daughter, with George C. Scott from about 40 years ago. When it was over, turned to the game, saw it was 6-1, and turned it off. Didn’t miss two hours of growing aggravation.
Anonymous
Nice, but didn’t get all of it.
David Farinella
IT IS A MIRACLE!!!!!!!! A Uribe walk. I am so happy I stayed awake for this…
Anonymous
But messes up Vin’s 3 ball shtick.
jasonu
rally caps…come on AJ
Anonymous
Just a salami down.
David Farinella
Hey Luis Cruz, have a year now.
When did AJ turn into Benji Molina?
Anonymous
Double play kills it, perfect
Jon Weisman
NPUT