In the ever-more-complicated process for reaching baseball’s Hall of Fame, the latest batch of previously rejected candidates includes Steve Garvey, Tommy John and Joe Torre.
Tommy Lasorda is among the 16tet that will have a say in the process.
Of the names on the list, Marvin Miller strikes me as most deserving. Craig Calcaterra has more at Hardball Talk.
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WBBsAs
I’d vote for Marvin Miller. The underserving Torre will make it sooner or later, and I think Tommy John should. As much a Dodger fan as I am, Garvey’s not quite HOF caliber.
jim hitchcock
He would be if there was a Hall of Popeye’s forearms.
btimmer
I would beg to differ that Joe Torre is one of the most deserving candidates on the ballot. If it were so easy to win World Series with good players, why aren’t there other franchises rattling off streaks like Torre’s Yankees did?
WBBsAs
Torre’s managerial career is one of sustained mediocrity interrupted by one remarkable run in a high publicity city. As I said, I expect him to make it, but I certainly would not vote for him.
btimmer
Casey Stengel was a pretty bad manager except when he managed the Yankees. The only Yankee manager who was successful in New York who even managed to win pennants in other cities were Joe McCarthy and Bucky Harris.
WBBsAs
I understand the case for Torre, but can’t work up any enthusiasm for him. Stengel at least had a personality.
btimmer
This makes me weep. I can’t fathom that such opinions exist.
WBBsAs
I’m can’t fathom your sarcasm (if that’s what it is), but I find it hard to think that anybody but a Yankee fan could truly embrace Joe Torre (his playing career was pretty good but, I think, fell well short of Garvey’s).
btimmer
Objectively, there is no way that Joe Torre is not a Hall of Fame manager. And Torre is nominated as a manager.
Even if you went by playing records, Torre is vastly superior to Garvey. Torre had a 57.4 WAR for his career to Garvey 37.4.
Torre also started at two challenging defensive positions: catcher and third, when Garvey could barely handle first base.
I am not sarcastic. I am now very angry.
WBBsAs
Facetious, perhaps?
SaMoDodger
And yogi berra.
Linkmeister
Marvin Miller’s denial has been the biggest argument for the Hall’s irrelevance over the past twenty years.
Daniel Zappala
For me, my Hall desires are tinged with sentiment, so I want Quisenberry in. Even though I grew up a Dodger fan, I loved watching him and his submarine delivery in the 1985 series.
dalegribel
Love him or hate him, Torre is most assuredly a hall of famer. TJ and #6 make just the Hall of Very Good.
Bob_Hendley
On the FA front, find to hard to believe that Wonderkid Ellsbury is as old as McCann.
michaelgreenlasvegas
Marvin Miller is the most important and deserving, but inducting him after his death is such an insult that he may send down a lightning bolt. Joe Torre was a very good player who was a very successful manager when he had better players and less successful when he didn’t–and should go in for that run in New York (to which I would add, Casey Stengel didn’t win when he had rotten teams–and many of those teams were truly rotten). Bobby Cox and Tony LaRussa are certainly deserving.
SaMoDodger
Wtf is this expansion committee? The explanation on the bbwaa home page makes it sound like the do-over committee for guys we didnt hinke were worrhy 20 years ago but now look not too shabby in comparison with all those cheating bastards who ruined the game during the 90s and early 2000s.
Torre should get in as a manager, but he was never a player you had tO pitch around. To my mind, Tomy John and Garvey belong in the Hall of Very Good. The Dodgers didnt think they were worthy of having their numbers retired.
btimmer
There are two different Veterans Committee. One is called “The Pre-Integration Era” and the other is the “Expansion Era.”
And they’ve always served as a 2nd review group. Managers like Cox, La Russa, and Torre can only be chosen by Veterans Committee. Torre isn’t nominated for his playing.
With the exception of Jim Gilliam, the Dodgers only retire the numbers of Hall of Famers, who played the majority of their career for the Dodgers.
btimmer
Why in the world do people think Joe Torre is overrated? He managed teams to 2326 regular season wins. His teams won FOUR World Series. And came within an eyelash of a fifth.
He managed teams for TWENTY-NINE seasons. Torre had a higher winning percentage, .538, than other Hall of Fame managers, such as Tommy Lasorda (.526). Only four other managers led teams to 4 or more WS wins: McCarthy (7), Stengel (7), Mack (5), and Alston (4). And those four managers are all in the Hall of Fame.
If you just go by league championships won, Torre had 6 in his career. And ever manager with at least four is in the Hall of Fame except for the three on his ballot: Torre, La Russa, and Cox.
Leo Durocher managed parts of 24 seasons in the majors. He won just three pennants and just one World Series. And he’s in the Hall of Fame.
If Joe Torre was such an overrated manager, where were the avalanche of pennants won by his predecessor, Buck Showalter, and his successor, Joe Girardi? There is 2009 and that’s it.
Just because the Dodgers lost to the Phillies in the playoffs in 08 an 09 (after going decades without any playoff series wins) doesn’t mean that Torre was a failure as a manager with the Dodgers.
Unless you don’t believe ANY manager doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame, then you can exclude Torre. But if you believe managers do belong. And I certainly do, there is no reasonable basis for excluding him from the Hall of Fame, when far inferior managers like Leo Durocher and Whitey Herzog are in the Hall of Fame.
package206
You make a great case and I will have to agree based on your facts but Torre still gets a negative mark for giving us Mattlingly.ha
thescrounger
If, as we read all year, a manager is not all that important to a team, the quality of players being more important, why are we even considering Torre? If he should be thus rewarded for winning with good teams, that line of reason would seem to say every member of that team should be in the HOF. Personally, and professionally, I dislike him.
btimmer
So, the anti-Torre arguments come down to “Well, I don’t like him.” Not even the slightest desire to look at what he accomplished.
dalegribel
Perhaps partly. Here, the anti-Torre sentiment probably stems from the fact he didn’t win with the Dodgers.
btimmer
By that logic, then Gary Carter and Juan Marichal shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame.
michaelgreenlasvegas
Or Casey Stengel.
Bob_Hendley
I don’t recall Sparky Anderson doing much for us either.
dalegribel
You really want to open that door? I’m on your side on this one.
btimmer
I just maintain that there is no logical reason for keeping Joe Torre out of the Hall of Fame unless:
1) you don’t think ANY manager deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
2) you are so contrarian that even Slate magazine would reject your work
thescrounger
“He accomplished” or he was simply there when the players accomplished it?
btimmer
So, in other words, you think Don Mattingly should be fired because he makes bad decisions and the Dodgers lose because of them, but the Yankees teams of the late 1990s won all those World Series despite the fact that Joe Torre was in the dugout, apparently making everything worse?
thescrounger
I don’t think it makes a whit of difference whether Mattingly comes back or not. Enough of the wins and losses will be because of the players, same result whether Mattingly or Wallach makes the big bucks as manager.
btimmer
In three years, Torre was 259-227 as Dodgers manager with 2 division titles and two NLDS wins. In three years, Mattingly is 260-225 with 1 division title.
Yeah, the differences are striking.
package206
I don’t think you can compare Torre to Mattingly. I didn’t like Torre a lot but he was better than Donnie. Donnie wins in spite of himself. His decisions are terrible in my opinion.
thescrounger
On another front, what, if anything, is going on about Mattingly?
dalegribel
Would it be too crazy to think that if Hanley would move back to third, the Dodgers could do a lot worse than two years of Furcal? http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/11/five-to-six-teams-interested-in-rafael-furcal.html?
WBBsAs
As much as I like Furcal, the Dodgers don’t need another fragile infielder.
thescrounger
If the Cards don’t want him, LA probably won’t either… I wonder if Steven Drew is a good choice with Hanley moving.
dalegribel
Drew was tendered by Boston. No way the Dodgers part with a draft pick for him. Then again, Drew would be crazy not to accept $14.1 million.
thescrounger
I’m not pleading his sanity but Boras will undoubtedly have him reject it and try for a multi-year contract. Dodgers probably wouldn’t give him more than two years, if that. I think we see Hanley at short again next year.
package206
I hope so as he has excelled at short and his performance at 3rd is questionable. It is important that Hanley stays happy.
JonnyTAFKAJ
Tanaka….. Shmanaka!
….
I’ve done my scouting, and I like this Japanese pitcher best! :-)
….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuykfkhjpkE
JonnyTAFKAJ
I love Raffy Furcal….. but, no. (too many injuries, too late in his career, too important a position)
….
Ryan Vogelsong: Giants declined his option….. sign him. I like this guy’s intensity.
NoahUCLA
I think we have enough over 30 year olds and both these guys are 36. With no farm system to speak of the last few years (except buying young players in Puig and Ryu), I don’t think signing any more over 35 y.o. players is called for. We need to get younger. Young power arms in the pen and a little youth on the field. If we do sign an older player for the infield, then keep either Uribe or MEllis and at least keep some consistency. I can see signing Volquez or Nolasco for 1 year, maybe 2, but don’t give out multiple year contracts (I don’t think Nolasco would take 1 or 2 years by the way). We have Beckett, Bills, Fife, Lee and MaGill to start the season (or Bills in May). Giving each of those a chance will take us until June. We should sign Tanaka if we can, but don’t sign 35+ year olds.
WBBsAs
So his intensity and scowl are more important than his lack of ability?
JonnyTAFKAJ
/
o o
+ That’s the best scowl I can draw with the keyboard. :-)
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WBBsAs
Your virtual scowl exceeds his pitching talent.
Bumsrap
This is the crazy season so in that spirit I offer another gem. If lopes and Russel can be converted from CF to SS and 2B in the majors, lets move Kemp to 3B.
Jon Weisman
NPUT